Tuesday, June 4, 2013

INC APOLOGIST EVADES A CATHOLIC APOLOGIST QUESTIONS [From: http://www.catholiceternaltruth.com/2010/09/inc-apologist-evades-catholic-apologist.html]

INC APOLOGIST EVADES A CATHOLIC APOLOGIST QUESTIONS

I posted the following questions for the apologist of Iglesia ni Cristo in Bishop Tagle's discussion board in facebook.
TANONG PARA SA MGA MIYEMBRO NG KULTO NI FELIX MANALO:

1. Did God absolutely prohibit ALL KINDS OF IMAGES? [Yes or No]

2. If God prohibited ALL KINDS OF IMAGES would it imply that even your very own picture is prohibited by God? [Yes or No]

3. If God did not prohibit ALL KINDS OF IMAGES, what then are the kinds of images that God prohibited?

4. In Exodus 20:3-5, what kind of images were prohibited? ALL KINDS OF IMAGES or IMAGES OF IDOLS?

5. Is the image of Christ an image of an idol?

6. Did God prohibit the making of an image of a holy person? [Yes or No]

7. Is a Holy person an idol?

8. What makes an image idol?

9. Did God commanded the making of images?

10. To follow your logic, would you then agree that your minsters should destroy the statue of Manalo in your central office? Since in Ex.20:4 it says, "You are not to make an image or picture of anything in heaven or on the earth or in the waters under the earth:", and the statue of manalo is an image of manalo here on earth.
And this is the answer of the INC apologist trying to evade most of my simple questions.
sahel Alfonso posted: TANONG PARA SA MGA MIYEMBRO NG KULTO NI FELIX MANALO:(correction: Iglesia Ni Cristo)

1. Did God absolutely prohibit ALL KINDS OF IMAGES? [Yes or No]
Sagot ko po: Basahin mo ang Exo. 201-5 ( huwag yes or no lang ang sagot. it's not fair)

2. If God prohibited ALL KINDS OF IMAGES would it imply that even your very own picture is prohibited by God? [Yes or No]
Sagot ko po uli: Basahin mo ang Exo. 20:1-5

3. If God did not prohibit ALL KINDS OF IMAGES, what then are the kinds of images that God prohibited?
Sagot ko po: Exo. 20:1-5 "huwag ninyong yuyukuran o' paglilingkuran man"

4. In Exodus 20:3-5, what kind of images were prohibited? ALL KINDS OF IMAGES or IMAGES OF IDOLS?
Sagot ko po: "....you should not bow down to all kinds of images before God.

5. Is the image of Christ an image of an idol?
Sagot ko po: There is no real images of Jesus Christ been recorded in the holy scriptures. The images of Jesus Christ inside the church of Roman Catholic is not the real images of Jesus Christ. Means "Fake"

6. Did God prohibit the making of an image of a holy person? [Yes or No]
Sagot ko po: any images like in heaven, in earth and in the sea, bow down to them is prohibited by God.

7. Is a Holy person an idol? Sagot ko po: What do you think?

8. What makes an image idol? Sagot ko po: Bow down, kneeling down infront of them before God.

9. Did God commanded the making of images? Sagot ko po: Bronze Serpent and Querubins but not to worship, not to bow down or not to kneel down infront of them before God.

10. To follow your logic, would you then agree that your minsters should destroy the statue of Manalo in your central office?
Sagot ko po: As the same reasoning you hath applied with the pictures of your loved one's, with our Hero's statue in Rizal Park. There is no wrong in making any images as long you shall not worship it, not to bow down or kneel down infront of them before God.

Since in Ex.20:4 it says, "You are not to make an image or picture of anything in heaven or on the earth or in the waters under the earth:", and the statue of manalo is an image of manalo here on earth.

Sagot ko po: with the purpose of worshiping it, bow down or kneel down infront of it before God, is strickly prohibited by God.
In the case of FYM statue, it is with the same purpose of Dr. Jose Rizal statue, they have been made not for worshiping, they have been made not of the purpose of putting them inside the house of worship, thay have been made not for the purpose of people must be bow down or kneel down infront of them before God.

Unlike your images inside your churches, they have been served, people were bow down or kneeling down infront of them before God, while recutation of prayers and worshiping God.

Satisfied ka ba sa mga sagot? So, balikan mo yun mga tanong ko at ikaw naman ang sumagot ng mga yun. okay give and take lang tayo di ba?
And this is my response to the INC apologist
[Isahel Alfonso posted: TANONG PARA SA MGA MIYEMBRO NG KULTO NI FELIX MANALO:(correction: Iglesia Ni Cristo)]
The Church that Felix Manalo founded in 1914 cannot be the Church that Christ founded in Mt.16:18. Felix Manalo founded his church in Punta, Sta. Ana Manila in July 27 1914 (cf. Encyclopedia of the Philippines Vol.20, by Zoilo Galang). As a matter of fact he even registered it not as a religious organization but as a corporation,
Felix Y. Manalo officially registered the church as a corporation sole with himself as executive minister on July 27, 1914 and because of this, most publications refer to him as the founder of the church. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iglesia_ni_Cristo
Clearly the church that Manalo founded is not really for the cause of religious belief but a business under the guise of religion. According to the weekly magazine on business, money and people Vol.1 No. 14, published June 6 1989.


The succession in the position chief executive minister of the INC proves that this group is a family owned business. As we all know when Felix Manalo died his son Erano Manalo succeeded him. And after the death of Erano Manalo his son Eduardo Manalo succeeded him. This form of succession is akin to handling over the ownership of a company registered as a sole proprietorship. Under this principle the title chief executive minister is only a façade what it really means is that the Manalo’s are the chief executive officer or owner of their company named Iglesia ni Cristo.
Now let’s go to the juicy part wherein the INC apologist tried to evade my questions.
  1. Did God absolutely prohibit ALL KINDS OF IMAGES? [Yes or No]
    Sagot ko po: Basahin mo ang Exo. 201-5 ( huwag yes or no lang ang sagot. it's not fair)
This question is similar to the question “are all apples red?” which can be answered by a yes or no. However instead of answering the question straight forward the INC apologist tried to evade the question by saying “it’s not fair”. What is in this question that he evaded answering it? This question is a basic inquiry regarding the images prohibited by God in the Bible. In order to fully understand the prohibition of the images we have to know first which images is prohibited. Thus the question “Did God prohibit all kinds of images?” is a valid query. If the answer to this question is “No” then it would imply that there are specific images that is prohibited and not prohibited by God. If the answer is “Yes” then it would also imply that all kinds of images regardless if it is used is abominable in the eyes of God including out very own pictures. And it would make photography and painting a sinful profession since both fields produce images. However basing on the Biblical data not all images are prohibited by God. In Ex.25:18 God commanded the making of the image of Cherubims, in Ex.20:3-5 it prohibits the images of idols.
Exodus 20:4 [Contemporary English Version]
Do not make idols that look like anything in the sky or on earth or in the ocean under the earth.
By practice INC do not believed that all kinds of image were prohibited by God as evidence by having a statue of Felix Manalo in their central office. But by principle they condemned all kinds of images as evidence by their slanderous claim that Catholics worship forbidden images. By doing so they had contradicted themselves and exposed their hypocrisy. Hence the INC apologist evaded to answer this question.
  1. If God prohibited ALL KINDS OF IMAGES would it imply that even your very own picture is prohibited by God? [Yes or No]
    Sagot ko po uli: Basahin mo ang Exo. 20:1-5

This question is aimed to know if our understanding of the prohibition by God on images is correct or not. The question is very categorical and simple. I did not ask where in the Bible God imposed the prohibition in images but rather is our pictures included in the prohibition of God. And again the INC apologist evaded the question because it refutes their principle that all kinds of images are prohibited by God. My question can be answered by a Yes or No, but instead that INC apologist gave me a passage from the Bible which is way out of my question, indeed they are the far-east-far-out.
  1. If God did not prohibit ALL KINDS OF IMAGES, what then are the kinds of images that God prohibited?
    Sagot ko po: Exo. 20:1-5 "huwag ninyong yuyukuran o' paglilingkuran man"
The INC apologist lacks reading comprehension, my question was, what kind of images were prohibited by God? But instead he answered me by citing a passage from the Bible and emphasizes “do not bow down and serve them”. The passage he cited answers my question but he intentionally emphasize verse 5 of Exodus chapter 10, but why? Why didn’t he emphasize verse 4 which directly answers my question? Verse 4 clearly answered what kinds of images were prohibited; it’s the images of idols.
Exodus 20:4 [Contemporary English Version]
Do not make idols that look like anything in the sky or on earth or in the ocean under the earth.
Yet he did not put emphasis on this passage because he will be in the dilemma of qualifying the images of Christ, Mary and saints as an image of idol. And in order for him to prove that these images are images of idols he has to prove that Christ, Mary and the saints are idols.
  1. In Exodus 20:3-5, what kind of images were prohibited? ALL KINDS OF IMAGES or IMAGES OF IDOLS?
    Sagot ko po: "....you should not bow down to all kinds of images before God.
Desperately the INC apologist evaded again the question. My question is very basic and simple, if the images prohibited in Exo.20:3-5 the images of idols or all kinds of images. And again I am confronted with a far-east-far-out answer. I was not asking whether we should bow down on images or not but rather on what kind of images were prohibited in Ex.20:3-5. Is the INC apologist intentionally evading my questions or he lacks reading comprehension? You’ll be the judge.
  1. Is the image of Christ an image of an idol?
    Sagot ko po: There is no real images of Jesus Christ been recorded in the holy scriptures. The images of Jesus Christ inside the church of Roman Catholic is not the real images of Jesus Christ. Means "Fake"
The INC apologist is using the principles of sola scriptura to prove that the images of Christ in the Catholic Church is fake. The burden of proof is upon him to present evidence from the Bible and history that the images of Christ in the Catholic Church is fake. If the images of Christ in the Catholic Church is fake, whose image is it then? Where in the Bible also says that the images of Christ in the Catholic Church is fake?
  1. Did God prohibit the making of an image of a holy person? [Yes or No]
    Sagot ko po: any images like in heaven, in earth and in the sea, bow down to them is prohibited by God.
This question is actually a variation of my first question, I have anticipated that this INC apologist will evade my question, thus it is necessary to make variations in order trap this serpent. Basing on his answer he believes that all kinds of image were prohibited. Just I suspect by practice they believed that not all images are prohibited by God since they too has a statue of Felix Manalo in their central office. And in principle they believed that all images are prohibited. Clearly they contradicted themselves.
  1. Is a Holy person an idol? Sagot ko po: What do you think?
When confronted with a straight forward question INC apologist does not know how to answer. The question I posted can be answered even by an elementary student, yet this INC apologist is playing dumb. What do I think? No it is not prohibited, the Cherubim is an angel and God commanded the making of its statue Ex.25:18.
  1. What makes an image idol? Sagot ko po: Bow down, kneeling down infront of them before God.
This INC apologist exposes his ignorance of Biblical language kneeling down or bowing down in front of an image or a person does not make that person an idol. In Dan.2:46 King Nebuchadnezzar bowed down to Daniel does that make Daniel an idol?
Daniel 2:46 [God’s Word]
King Nebuchadnezzar immediately bowed down on the ground in front of Daniel. He ordered that gifts and offerings be given to Daniel.
Joshua 5:14 [Contemporary English Version]
"Neither," he answered. "I am here because I am the commander of the LORD's army." Joshua fell to his knees and bowed down to the ground. "I am your servant," he said. "Tell me what to do."
In these passages the term bowed down in Hebrew is שׁחה (shachah) which is used interchangeable for adoration to God or giving respect and veneration to Holy persons. The Hebrew language lacks the vocabulary of the English language thus in the Hebrew language a single word can have different meaning. When Catholics bow down to a statue he does not worship the statue in place of God or worship God through the statue. But rather he renders veneration or respect to the person represented by the image.
  1. Did God commanded the making of images? Sagot ko po: Bronze Serpent and Querubins but not to worship, not to bow down or not to kneel down infront of them before God.
At last he did not evade the question and his answer is in conformity with the Catholic belief. God allowed the making of certain images as long as you do not worship those images. Catholics have images but we do not worship images in place of God or worship God through the images. I have already explained about “bow down” and “kneeling”, doing these actions does not connote worship.
  1. To follow your logic, would you then agree that your minsters should destroy the statue of Manalo in your central office?
    Sagot ko po: As the same reasoning you hath applied with the pictures of your loved one's, with our Hero's statue in Rizal Park. There is no wrong in making any images as long you shall not worship it, not to bow down or kneel down infront of them before God.

    Since in Ex.20:4 it says, "You are not to make an image or picture of anything in heaven or on the earth or in the waters under the earth:", and the statue of manalo is an image of manalo here on earth.

    Sagot ko po: with the purpose of worshiping it, bow down or kneel down infront of it before God, is strickly prohibited by God.
    In the case of FYM statue, it is with the same purpose of Dr. Jose Rizal statue, they have been made not for worshiping, they have been made not of the purpose of putting them inside the house of worship, thay have been made not for the purpose of people must be bow down or kneel down infront of them before God.

    Unlike your images inside your churches, they have been served, people were bow down or kneeling down infront of them before God, while recutation of prayers and worshiping God.
Catholic do not worship images, bowing down and kneeling in front of images does not make the image an idol not does it connote adoration. We have images of Saints not for the purpose of worshiping their statues but for the same purpose of having statues of our national heroes. You accused as of serving the images in our Church that is only your opinion and a product of your obscure reasoning. The Church do not teaches that images should be served. I challenge you to cite from the OFFICIAL MAGISTERIAL DOCUMENTS like CATECHISMS, PAPAL ENCYCLICAL and COUNCIL DECREES that images should be served and worship.
Satisfied ka ba sa mga sagot? So, balikan mo yun mga tanong ko at ikaw naman ang sumagot ng mga yun. okay give and take lang tayo di ba?
No I am not satisfied with your answer since you keep on evading my questions like how your ministers evade our questions.

Friday, January 11, 2013

A Mini-Dialogue on Salvation, the Cross, & the Man's Obligation to the Gospel


A Protestant's Objection:
Man is already reconciled to God because of the finished work of Christ. (Col.1:19-20) But Sin still dwells in our body, (Rom.7:17) And when we sin, we are NOT the one who is doing it, but the sin that still dwells in our body. Aside from that, we have already been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. Romans 7:6 (NASB95) And if ever we commits sin, God is not counting our sins against us no more. 2 Cor 5:19 (NASB95) But we reap the consequences of what we sow, and being Children of God, He discipline us for our good.


My Answer:

This is a poor theology which looks down on the (serious) implications of sin. 


"Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, PROVIDED YOU CONTINUE in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be CUT OFF." [Romans 11:22] [emphasis mine]

Your theology looks down on the nature of sin which is a FREE & CONSCIOUS or DELIBERATE disobedience to the commandments of God (see Matt. 7:21). The idea of 2 Corinthians 5:19 according to Barne's commentary (see here: http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/5-19.htm) "...that God did not charge on them with inexorable severity and stern justice their offenses, but graciously provided a plan of pardon, and offered to remit their sins on the conditions of the gospel." 


What then are the CONDITIONS OF THE GOSPEL? 

Simple, BELIEVE, REPENT, TURN FROM YOUR WICKED WAYS. Christ saved us, this is a GIFT. However, as a gift, it needs our ACTION & this action is: ACCEPTANCE that is not a ONE TIME EVENT but a LIFE TIME VOW to be in Christ. Hence there is the continual call to REPENTANCE & fighting the good fight in HOPE even after becoming a Christian...


Re-read Rom. 11:22 again & contrast this to what Jesus himself COMMANDED: "Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me." [John 15:4] & "But IF you remain in me and my words remain in you, you may ask for anything you want, and it will be granted!" [John 15:7].

Take note, an individual's conscious adherence to or detachment from Christ is not disregarded & will affect one's salvation.

Therefore, there is no contradiction that Christ's redemptive work/sacrifice in the cross is finished but our continued (conscious) allegiance to Him & conversion of heart is continuous & ongoing until the time we die & face Him in judgment. Hence, Christians are told to wait in HOPE (Titus 2:13) & to KEEP themselves in God's love while waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring them to eternal life. [Jude 1:21]... There is no shortcut to eternal life. Suffering & the possibility of falling from grace is present hence the gospel warns us from false teachers & in REMAINING faithful.

The consequence of easy "believism" (an offspring of protestantism) are theologies that cater to individual tastes. An "individualized Christianity" so to speak where everything is easy when you just believe & read the Bible. Forget Apostolic & Historic evidence & continuity & authority just listen to your own interpretation anyway it is just "Jesus & me".

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires" [2 Timothy 4:3]

"But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation" [2 Peter 1:20]

Another Objection:
When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. (Col 2:13-14)

Another Answer:
This does not say that when you SIN (for the sake of argument you already repented) you are automatically excused. This speaks of the source of grace & forgiveness being made available to us when we repent & turn to Him. Again, your problem still stands in ROMANS 11:22.

Still Another Objection:
Isn't it that all our sins has been forgiven on the cross? past, present and future?

My Answer:
Sins are forgiven indeed if you BELIEVE, REPENT, PERSEVERE. The passage you presented does not say that "you're already saved & comfortable even if you CONTINUE to sin AFTER". The passage talks about the SACRIFICE in the cross FOR the forgiveness of sins. But you can only attain this forgiveness PROVIDED again that you CONFESS/BELIEVE in Christ (John 3:16), REPENT, & PERSEVERE in your faith.

The phrase "ONCE & FOR ALL" also talks about the sacrifice of Christ & of which it will be the primary power that will GIVE EFFECT TO OUR ASKING OF FORGIVENESS. Hence I presented you the verses above of which you do not seem to read.

My sins today are future from the point of the cross indeed, but this has nothing to do with the passage being "forgiven in ADVANCE" thereby ERASING my possibility of PRAYING FOR REPENTANCE. I am in the future from the cross & the passage tells us of that the effectivity of the SACRIFICE (provided we REPENT & BELIEVE in the future).

For the sake of a single passage taken OUT OF CONTEXT by virtue of your OWN INTERPRETATION you have indeed bastardized the whole message of the Bible. BELIEVE- "IF you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" [Rom. 10:9] & contrast this to John 3:16.

REPENT- From that time Jesus began to preach and say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." [Matt. 4:17] OBEY His precept because- "...He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation" [Heb. 5:9]

PERSEVERE because- "'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels." [Rev. 3:5].

The effectivity therefore of a man's asking for repentance & faith is taken from the passage you quoted. It is here that the reasonable application of Col. 2:13-14 can be applied. Because if we take your passage in itself without reconciling it with the whole scriptures it will show that HELL is nonexistent because EVERYONE already is singing and are already saved NO MATTER IF THEY REPENTED OR NOT OR ARE STILL DOING EVIL THINGS OR NOT.

Thursday, June 14, 2012

Do Good Works Always Follow Faith Or Is It Possible For Faith To Exist Without Works?

 
This is to prove that Faith does not necessarily beget Good Works & therefore Salvation:

“…So, just as the body is dead without its spirit, so faith WITHOUT deeds is also dead.” [James 2:25-26] & “So you see, a person is JUSTIFIED by WORKS and NOT BY FAITH ALONE.” [James 2:24]… Notice that Faith & Works are categorized as two INDEPENDENT & therefore separate entities implying further the need to let it WORK TOGETHER for JUSTIFICATION.

Faith does not necessarily follow Works that's why James said:

JUSTIFIED by WORKS and NOT BY FAITH ALONE.” [James 2:24]

This is the only passage in scriptures where you can find the phrase: FAITH ALONE apparently there is NOT JUSTIFIED before it. Also according to Jesus the Lamb in the book of revelation, this is how we are to be justified:

“I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before the throne while books were opened. Another book, the Book of Life, was also opened. Then the dead were judged according to the records of these books, that is, each one ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS.” [Rev. 20:12].

“..I will give each of you what your conduct deserves.” [Rev. 2:23].

Baptists & Born Agains hold that "faith alone" is the standard that God requires for us to be saved but the Bible is quiet explicit on the contrary. In order to redeem this view of justification, they usually refer to this passage for refuge:


Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. [Philippians 2:12-13]

1st of all, this does not & cannot be used as an "excuse" to the reasoning that faith automatically begets good works. A protestant commentary incidentally on this matter has this to say (i.e. Barne's commentary taken from http://bible.cc/philippians/2-13.htm):

//(1) It is not God who acts for us. He leads us to "will and to do." It is not said that he wills and does for us, and it cannot be. It is man that "wills and does" - though God so influences him that he does it.

(2) he does not compel or force us against our will. He leads us to will as well as to do. The will cannot be forced; and the meaning here must be that God exerts such an influence as to make us willing to obey Him; compare Psalm 110:3.//

Now let us look Psalm 110:3 for comparison:

When you go to war, your people will serve you willingly. You are arrayed in holy garments, and your strength will be renewed each day like the morning dew.[Psalm 110:3]

Taken in context, Philippians 2:12-13 simply means that God gives us all the strength, inspiration, & MEANS to do His will not that we are safe from personally WILLING/CHOOSING (by virtue of our freedom/ & freewill) to either follow the dictates of our faith through action or not. Hence, if a person after believing or declaring his faith does not act on his faith, he will not be saved as such that the Lord himself did say that
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." [Matthew 7:21]. Cross-reference this with Luke 6:46.
So we go again to the book of James & reflect why it is important to do what our faith dictates [James 1:22].
Yet still, let the Bible speak more on this matter:

May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. [Hebrews 13:20-21]

Let us repeat...

equip you with everything good for doing his will
equip you with everything good for doing his will
equip you with everything good for doing his will
[Hebrews 13:21]
 

Wednesday, June 13, 2012

"PERFECT mediation requires PERFECT representation."

For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus [1 Timothy 2:5]
"PERFECT mediation requires PERFECT representation."

1) As God
Perfect mediator si Christ between God & man because HE perfectly represents GOD as such He is the IMAGE of the invisible God [Colossians 1:15] & that the fullness of God is in Him [Col. 2:9]. He is the Word of God [John 1:1-18 & Rev. 19:16] who came down & became human [Philippians 2:6-7].

2) As Man
Because He became flesh [Jn 1:14 & Philippians 2:6-7] or man He has completely & perfectly represented us men before the Father & is able to become a perfect sacrifice for our sins because NO MERE human can take away humanity's sins except if He is DIVINE [Mark 2:7].

Because being a Perfect Mediator means perfect REPRESENTATION then we can say that Jesus is indeed ONE with the Father [John 10:30] as such ALL that belongs to the Father is Jesus' also [John 16:15]. That's why worshiping Christ is not blasphemy because it is worshiping God.
 

Wednesday, February 8, 2012

A Dialogue On the Issue of Religious Images in the Church

Born Again: 
Catholics are quick to defend themselves, pointing out that there were good traditions in the Bible,,,Instead of obeying the commandments of God, the Catholic Church teaches the TRADITIONS of men.

Response: 
when Catholic say something about tradition we do not talk about traditions of men we talk about the Apostolic Traditions:

So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter. [2 Thessalonians 2:15]

I praise you for remembering everything I told you and for holding to the traditions that I passed on to you. International Standard Version (©2008) [1 Corinthians 11:2]

Before you make sweeping accusations I suggest you read or listen to our stand because your making yourself a liar in the end...

Spouting off before listening to the facts is both shameful and foolish. [Proverbs 18:13] New Living Translation (©2007)


Born Again:
"You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth”. In the Hebrew, the phrase 'graven image' comes from ‘pesel’, w...

Response:
That is the point of what I am posting above. If God forbids ALL as in ALL images then He has contradicted Himself because in other instances He even COMMANDED MAKING GRAVEN IMAGES:
 
"And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be". [Ex. 25:18–20]

 David was given the plan of the temple which included IMAGES of ANGELS:

and the weight of the refined gold for the altar of incense. He also gave him the plan for the chariot, that is, the cherubim of gold that spread their wings and shelter the ark of the covenant of the LORD. [1 Chronicles 28:18]

Similarly this is the vision of the idealized temple of God as seen in a vision by Ezekiel:

In the space above the outside of the entrance to the inner sanctuary and on the walls at regular intervals all around the inner and outer sanctuary were carved cherubim and palm trees. Palm trees alternated with cherubim. Each cherub had two faces: the face of a man toward the palm tree on one side and the face of a lion toward the palm tree on the other. They were carved all around the whole temple. From the floor to the area above the entrance, cherubim and palm trees were carved on the wall of the outer sanctuary. [Ezekiel 41:17-20]

What do you think these are? Are these not graven images? The question is not about the ABSOLUTE FORBIDDING of IMAGES it is the PROPER RELIGIOUS USE of them. Please use your head on this one & let not your prejudices & biases hinder you from acknowledging the truth.

Born Again:
No image, no idol, no idea will totally encompass our Great, living, transcendent, Almighty God.

Answer:
So when did the Catholic Church taught that images are to be considered IDOLS & where in the Bible did it say that idolatry is limited to graven images? However let me address your point. While it is true that we cannot put the glory of God in our hands God nonetheless provided Imagery of Himself so we can imagine Him & we may be given idea of His greatness. As an evidence God has provided images of Himself in which we can remember Him:
 
-As I looked, "thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze. [Daniel 7:9]

-The Holy Spirit in the form of a dove [Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32

- The Holy Spirit in the form of tongues of Fire [Acts 2:1–4]
-Most importantly when God entered creation He revealed HIMSELF as a man who we can see & remember either through stories or through images. He revealed HIMSELF in the image of Christ:

//He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. [Colossians 1:15]//

Now is this not what God is? He became man & how can we make representations of God is it not through the image of a MAN ON THE CROSS? The moment you will say it is demonic is the moment you will deny Christ.

Again before you accuse without even having an information of what we believe here is what the Catholic Church teaches:

The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it." The honor paid to sacred images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone:

Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. the movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.

Source: Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2132

Born Again:
How do you draw God?mr.Gregor Alfonsin C. Pondoyo and Teewee Diego? Is God left-wing or right-wing? Male or female? Judgmental or merciful? Does God oppose all the things you oppose, and agree with all the things you find agreeable? If so, that’s an idol.

Answer:

If you do not agree with the testimony of early Christians who saw Jesus & painted him on the walls then that is up to you. For the mean time cling to the IDOL that is in your mind because you cannot pray to a God without even having a PROTOTYPE/REPRESENTATION of something or someone in your mind. You’re a hypocrite.

Born Again:
I plead with you, obey the Gospel by acknowledging your guilt of sin for breaking God's Laws, turn to the Lord Jesus Christ in faith, trusting solely upon His work of redemption to wash away your sins Gregor Alfonsin C. Pondoyo Teewee Diego

Answer:

I plead with you to use your common sense & listen before you make rants & accusations about our doctrines. Either way you have shown your GROSS ingnorance of the BIBLE.

Born Again:
You need Christianity friend, NOT churchianity. You need HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, not your own self-righteousness.

Answer:
You need Christ & Christ is in His Church because the Church is HIS BODY:

And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way. [Ephesians 1:22-23]

if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth [1 Timothy 3:15]

By your ignorance of the Church & its teachings you actually ended up persecuting it & therefore you persecuted & bore false witness in front of Christ because the Church is Christ's body.
 

Ergo, you are a MASSIVE ignorant of the scriptures & ignorance of the scriptures is ignorance of Christ [St. Jerome]





Sources:

Catechism of the Catholic Church: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7F.HTM
Catholic Answers on Do Catholics Worship Images: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/do-catholics-worship-statues
Bible- All verses are taken from the New International Version (1984) unless otherwise indicated.




Thursday, February 2, 2012

Question & Answer (with follow-up questions) with a Born Again in FB


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Born Again: First, i dont follow any person regardless of his/her status in life, i only follow the Lord Jesus Christ as my God and saviour and based my teaching and life from Him and Him alone. 

Answer: Catholics follow Christ also & ALL his teachings. When he said that he will build (INSTITUTE) his Church on EARTH [Matthew 16:18] who are we to say that it is not valid & we should not be under His Church?

Born Again: Second,if the Catholic faith will stop asking help through prayer from Mary and other saints

Answer: Is it wrong? So far we are taught in the Bible to pray with one another [2 Thessalonians 1:11] are we to stop because a saint is not already here on earth? Are you saying that a believer in Christ especially a saint who is considered to have excelled in his faith can die? Have you not read that DEATH CANNOT SEPARATE us from Christ [Romans 8:35-39]? & that saints are actually alive in heaven [Rev. 5:8]?

Born Again: stop confessing ur sins to the priest

Answer: Is it wrong to confess our sins to one another? Have you not read that we are even commanded to do so [James 5:16]? & that our first Bishops the Apostles was given the power to forgive sins [John 20:22-23]?

Born Again: stop memorizing the prayers

Answer: Where is it stated in the Bible that memorizing prayers is bad? When I memorize & recite the Bible to remind me of my duties before God & men do I commit a sin? When Jesus instructed his apostles how to pray [Matthew 6:9-13] is it wrong to follow it?

Born Again: stop teaching that in order to be saved u must obey and follow the 7 sacraments

Answer: Jesus said that “Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” [Matthew 7:21]. The sacraments -for example Baptism- are explicit commands from Jesus himself & echoed by the Apostles because this is supposed to be the Christian rite of Initiation into the body of Christ [Ephesians 4:5]. Are we to stop doing the sacraments because you said so?

Born Again: stop teaching that the pope is infallible

Answer: When Jesus said to Peter (the first Pope or Leader Bishop): “Now I say to you that you are Peter (which means 'rock'), and upon this rock I will build my church, and all the powers of hell will not conquer it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” [Matthew 16:18-19] are we to say that Jesus is lying or that His promise to Peter is empty because whenever Peter teaches something (about the Faith & Morals) He is prone to commit mistakes? Do you even know what infallibility means?

Born Again: stop teaching that there is Limbo and Purgatory

Answer: Do you not know that we as Catholics are not even required to believe Limbo? That Limbo is under theological debate? Do you know the scriptural basis for Purgatory? Do you know that like the Trinity the word cannot be seen categorically but the teaching is there in the Bible [Philippians 2:10, 1 Corinthians 3:15 for example]?

Born Again: stop teaching that the bible has 72 books and not only 66

Answer: Why do you have the authority to say how many books in the Bible should be included or added? Do you know who compiled your Bible?

Born Again: and if the Catholic church will declare that our only and final authority both in our practice and doctrine is the Bible

Answer: Where did the Bible say that it is the “only and final authority both in our practice and doctrine”? Didn’t you read in that same Bible that: “…the Church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth” [1 Timothy 3:15]? If the Bible is the only foundation of truth then about 300 years after Christ ascended to heaven early Christians are lost sheep because they didn’t have the Bible that we are using right now?

Born Again: and our only God and Saviour is Jesus Christ

Answer: Do you not know that we proclaim that in Mass every day that Jesus is God & Lord & Saviour? Do you not know that the official book of the Catholic Church on catechism says? Here it is in the Catechism of the Catholic Church articles 423 & 446:

//We believe and confess that Jesus of Nazareth, born a Jew of a daughter of Israel at Bethlehem at the time of King Herod the Great and the emperor Caesar Augustus, a carpenter by trade, who died crucified in Jerusalem under the procurator Pontius Pilate during the reign of the emperor Tiberius, is the eternal Son of God made man. He 'came from God', descended from heaven', and 'came in the flesh'. For 'the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father. . . and from his fullness have we all received, grace upon grace.//

//In the Greek translation of the Old Testament, the ineffable Hebrew name YHWH, by which God revealed himself to Moses, is rendered as Kyrios, "Lord". From then on, "Lord" becomes the more usual name by which to indicate the divinity of Israel's God. the New Testament uses this full sense of the title "Lord" both for the Father and - what is new - for Jesus, who is thereby recognized as God Himself.//

For online resource of the Catechism or CCC follow this link: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

Born Again: the meaning of this word (Catholic) is "Universal church of God"

Answer: We are the Catholic Church remember?

Born Again: and i believe since i accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as my own and only personal saviour, i belong to the universal church of God which is His body

Answer: But have you really been in the true Body of Christ? Do you not know that the Church called Catholic Church has been rejected by you? Do you really think that just by believing your already part of the Boyd of Christ? Do you not know that in Paul in his First (1) Letter to the Corinthians 12:12-13 it is said:

//For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.//

Let us elaborate it:
1)      The Church is the VISIBLE body of Christ, it is ONE.
2)      Through the Holy Spirit in baptism we are made part (an act of initiation) into this body.
3)      The same elements can be seen: water & the Spirit.

Christ commanded that believers be baptized, are you saying that we should not follow it?